WLD 5.0 for NON-Fidelity Clients!?
Author: fernfel62
Creation Date: 6/11/2008 6:27 AM
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fernfel62

#1
Wealth-Lab Version 5 (.NET) 5.0

As a user of WLD and planning to develop a more complex system infrastructure with some partners, I would like to know if and when you are definitely planning to offer WLD 5.0 to NON-Fidelity clients.

We do not want to start with a major project and then having to convert to another framework which would force us to rebuild (and test) everything again. I am asking this as we definitely would like to work now with .NET from the beginning and therefore the platform issue is crucial.

I must admit that we are now seriously considering to move to one of the known platforms which are already .NET based if we cannot asses your roadmap for future releases. By the way, treating NON-Fidelity users as second class users (and keeping them uncertain about product availability) is maybe not the best strategy to follow if you want to maintain your community.
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reds

#2
In the same forum as you posted, 4 posts below, the WL developers say they will release WLD 5.1 at the end of this month. This has been consistent with other posts for the past few months.

/Forum/Posts/Wealth-Lab-Developer-50-26871

Mike
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Cone

#3
We will release 5 (actually 5.1) when everything is in place to do it. We're sorry for the delay, but there have been significant "behind-the-scenes" challenges to get this out the door, and, everyone will be very surprised (pleasantly so) when they see what MS123 has been up to. We're making it worth the wait.

Also, this is just a one-time delay. In the future, we'll release new versions of Developer 5 in lock step with Pro 5.
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fernfel62

#4
Thanks for the info!
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trender

#5
To clarify, I have spoken with fidelity reps who tell me that the non-fidelity versions of WL (WLD) are available only to ex-US buyers.

Is this not true? Will WL 5.x be available in the US to non-fidelity customers?

PS I read the recent post(s) I could find, but couldn't discern if WLD would be available to US -- even assuming it will lack the broker API which would need to be added by a third party.

PPS My apologies in adnvance if this is answered elsewhere and I missed it, I'm sure this is a common topic!

Thanks
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Eugene

#6
Will WL 5.x be available in the US to non-fidelity customers?

No.
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sguod

#7
Eugene, when you say "No" I assume you mean NEW U.S. customers.

I am an old U.S. WL user from the 2.0 days and when Fidelity acquired WL, I had no desire to use Fidelity's brokerage services but was grandfathered in and allowed to continue to obtain WLD upgrades. I am presently using WLD 4.0 Build 4. I assume I will be allowed to upgrade to WLD 5.1 if I desire.

Doug S.
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Cone

#8
In reality, there is no legacy for Version 5 since it's a new product. It won't be possible for U.S. citizens to upgrade or purchase Version 5. U.S. citizens can get Wealth-Lab Pro Version 5 for free with a qualifying Fidelity account.
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fundtimer

#9
Clarification: Free, meaning with sufficient commission flow to Fidelity.
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diesel

#10
I live in the states, but am not a US citizen (green card holder). Would I be allowed to purchase version 5?
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Cone

#11
ft - I'm in business to make money, and you?
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fundtimer

#12
If by that you mean make money by deception, then the answer is no.
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Cone

#13
That's completely uncalled for. No one is deceiving any one. I'm differentiating "free" use of Wealth-Lab Pro at Fidelity with the "paid" option for international clients of Wealth-Lab Developer.

All the facts are in black and white. Click on the banner and you'll see what a "qualifying account" means - basically that you need to trade with Fidelity and that they charge commissions.

I don't know about you, but I haven't found any brokers that offer commissionless trading and act as my agent just because they like to do it.

When I say it's "free with a qualifying account", that means you do not have to purchase the software. There are no activation or hidden fees to use Wealth-Lab Pro at Fidelity. Compare the fees with RealTick, TradeStation, etc.. for using their software.
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fundtimer

#14
You totally missed the point. You said the that WLP5 would be free. I simply clarified the 'free' part before he or whomever packed-up and headed for the U.S.
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sguod

#15
Cone, well thanks for clearing that up! All U.S. users must use Fidelity to upgrade past WLD 4.0 Build 4.

I had erroneously assumed I could upgrade to WLD 5.1 if I desired. Altho its a bit disconcerting to be using a dead-end product, I guess WLD 4.0 has all the features I really need.

My present trading system works on a 5% PT and generates 4-6 trades per month. As such it requires a broker, such as IB, with very low commissions.

Doug S.
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Cone

#16
ft -
I did not say, "free." The period after "free" is taken out of context.

I said, "free with a qualifying Fidelity account."

sq -
In some cases, you'll pay more commissions with IB. But in my opinion, the commissions of either broker is neglible in comparison with trading execution.
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fundtimer

#17
Ok, I'll buy that: ... free, providing there is sufficient commission flow to Fidelity.
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johnjan

#18
>> the commissions of either broker is neglible in comparison with trading execution

This is plain wrong. Seems like you make money on every trade. For most of us, if you somehow manage to even break even, fidelity's commissions will break your back. IB is way ahead if you play small positions like 200 or 500 shares, or even 1000 shares.

Fideility's commission beat IB's only when you buy something like 2000 shares in one shot, my guess is that only very few WL users do that "regularly". Fidelity also charges extra fees. Even worse, there are so many fine prints on Fidelity's commission page.

To clarify, to get WLP "free", you need to pass at least 960 dollars to Fidelity every year.
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Cone

#19
Let me go back to RealTick. 7 or 8 years ago, I was paying over $25/trade - upwards of $25,000 commissions/year. If I didn't trade 20 trades per month ($500/month), then there was a $300 fee to use the trading execution platform. And, after paying those $500 commissions for 20 trades per month, if I didn't have 50 trades, add another $100!

Fast forward to 2008. Commissions nowadays are cheap - they have to be for U.S. brokerages to stay competitive. Even so, commissions are a cost of doing business (and if you can't make money with $8 commissions then believe me, your trading strategy or execution of it is the problem, not the commssions). As a retail trader, you're going to pay commissions - at IB or Fidelity or anywhere. The name of the brokerage game now is service...

Imagine you were a Fidelity Active Trader before WL Pro - already paying $8 commissions, but you had to look elsewhere for backtesting and automated trading. Fidelity invested a lot of time and money to offer WL Pro to their active traders as an additional service. And, Fidelity did it again by investing more to take Wealth-Lab into the next generation. (Isn't TradeStation still a 16-bit application?) These were not insignificant investments, and like any investment, there's an expected return - more active traders.

Incidentally, I feel that I'm just stating the obvious here.
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fundtimer

#20
For the record, I don't have a problem with a flow of commission to Fidelity. The problem I'm having is the inappropriate use of the word 'free'. Someone internally needs to replace that 'free' nonsense with 'at no additional charge' or a similar phrase.

Free means free, no strings attached, otherwise it's deceptive to use such a word. Fidelity's use of the word reminds me of those late night infomercials:

"Buy my product and I'll throw in blah blah ... for free!"
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gammaarray

#21
Cone of course you would do that to maximize your profit, who wouldnt, right!.. But people who purchased wealth-lab did not purchase as if it was a broker but because it wasnt a broker; They purchased a piece of "software" where they could choose their own brokers as it was geared for that via long period of testing by the same users that you are trying to dump, free of charge. And the users wrote massive number of scripts for it in a public domain not knowing it will become a property of a broker who would eventually charge them to use it.. And this broker obviously could not brake the old contracts regrading version 4 and prior so its gearing to capture the same audience to pay them their broker fees by converting the software to brokerage software which it wasnt..

Fundtimer, you may not have a problem with the brokerage fees but I do.. I liked the idea of having a independent software provider and not be hostage to a brokerage firm whims as you can see it finally converged to.. No wonder people are writing open source software..

Anyways thats how I feel for the record...
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fundtimer

#22
gammaarray, for the record, personally I don't have a problem with commission since my Fidelity account(s) qualify for anything they have to offer, commission 'free'.

Secondly, If I were shopping for a trading system, I would want the best product available that met my trading needs and capability, period, and if that meant Fidelity's stuff, then so be it.
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gammaarray

#23
If you have access to something like a free commissions then obviously it would fit your requirements after using the tool for almost a decade, wouldnt it.. but I didnt see "free" in their fee structures other than promotional items.. perhaps you trade their funds or something like that.. OR they just like you.. I wouldnt know.

I will use the old software and they have been nice about that I must say.. but I will look at open source stuff because I think all fee based software providers copy each other to finally capture an audience to pay monthly fees for life..

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fundtimer

#24
"...after using the tool for almost a decade, wouldnt it..."

p.s., I've never used any of Fidelity's or any of my other broker's tools in my real trading, just my own stuff.
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gammaarray

#25
Yup.. I forgot about that.. You wouldnt care to publish it would you..
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reds

#26
While I see both sides, I am in gammaarray's camp.I thought that when WLD was released that prior WLD owners would be grandfathered and allowed to purchase the 5.0. Besides all the points gammarray mentioned regarding all the scripts that have been posted, there is a safety valve in owning the software rather than renting or leasing the software. I do use 5.0 but have held off migration until WLD was released with the thought that WLD 5.x would be available as an upgrade to owners previous to the Fido acquisition. At some point Fido will grow tired of WL Pro and look to sell it back to the developers and will sell it at a bargain price - similiar to the way Buzzy Geduld of Herzog sold and bought back and fianlly high ticked in his sale to Merrill Lynch right before the OTC market blew up.

Mike
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fundtimer

#27
"...You wouldnt care to publish it would you..."

Not really. For one, it's always a works in progress. For example, when I see something I like or if there's a problem somewhere, I'll address it on the spot. Also, the operational overhead is too complex for general publication, requiring a proprietary redundant data feed, a local Apache2.2 server, ActiveState's Perl for Windows and AdvsoftEng compiled C modules for Perl just to get the engine started.
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gammaarray

#28
I understand fundtimer.. It was worth asking though on my part.. Bodanker noted an open system that I will look into. But its hard to start all over from scratch, I must say but thats life.

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johnjan

#29
Let's see where Fidelity stands with free Wealthlab and active trader services. Suppose an active trader has a system which puts a 50-100 limit orders of 100-200 shares everyday, and on average does 10 round-trip trades.

Cost of WealthLab at Fidelity = $0
Cost of commission at Fidelity in 1 year = [number of trading days in a year] * [trades per day] * commission per day = 252 * 20 * 8 = $40320

Now lets see what happens when somebody outside US uses IB
Cost of WealthLab per year over 5 years = $210 (assuming $650 initial purchase and $100 upgrade for 4 times)
Cost of commission at IB in 1 year = [number of trading days in a year] * [trades per day] * commission per day = 252 * 20 * 1 = $5040

[Note: commission at IB is $0.005 per share with minimum of $1.00]

Total cost using Fidelity = $40320
Total cost using IB = $5250

Or in other words:

Total cost of using free Wealthlab = $40320
Total cost of using paid Wealthlab = $5250

Do you want a paid Wealthlab or a free Wealthlab?

Some metrics might seem favorable to IB, but actually those metrics are favorable to active trading, not to IB.
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Cone

#30
Anyone who can prove that they trade an average of 10 round trips everyday at another broker should call and negotiate their commission rate when opening an account with Fidelity - I'm confident that they work with you on the commissions.

Furthermore, casual readers of this topic should note that "Active Trader" status (required for the free entitlement for Wealth-Lab Pro) is currently a $25K account with an average of only 5 round-trips (10 trades) per month.

That's about 40x less than what johnjan would have you believe it costs.